Inside Optimal Blue’s AI Labs: Advancing AI in Mortgage Lending
In this episode of Optimal Insights, the team begins with a market update covering mortgage rate volatility, inflation concerns, Federal Reserve commentary, energy prices, and the economic data releases that continue to influence rate expectations.
The focus then shifts to artificial intelligence (AI) and innovation in mortgage lending as Kevin Foley, Director, AI Labs, joins the podcast to discuss the launch of Optimal Blue's new AI-focused organization. The conversation explores how lenders can apply AI to solve real business challenges, improve productivity, streamline workflows, and support more informed decision-making.
The team discusses how AI Labs is designed to accelerate innovation across the organization while maintaining a disciplined approach to governance, security, and responsible adoption. Additional topics include enterprise AI implementation, emerging model developments, cost considerations, practical use cases, and the importance of aligning technology investments with measurable business outcomes.
Rather than focusing on AI as a future concept, the discussion centers on how lenders can begin realizing value from AI today through practical applications that enhance operational efficiency and support strategy across the mortgage life cycle.
Key Points
- Mortgage rates remain under pressure as markets continue to evaluate inflation data and Federal Reserve policy.
- AI Labs was established to accelerate innovation and support responsible AI adoption across the organization.
- AI can help lenders improve productivity, streamline workflows, and address practical business challenges when implemented with clear objectives and governance.
Chapters
- 00:00 – Market Update and Rate Environment
- 03:26 – Inflation, Economic Data, and Market Expectations
- 12:14 – Energy Markets and Economic Headwinds
- 23:23 – Introducing AI Labs
- 29:43 – Responsible AI Adoption and Governance
- 32:30 – Emerging AI Trends and Enterprise Implementation
- 44:05 – The Future of AI Innovation in Mortgage Lending
Optimal Insights Team
- Jim Glennon, Senior Vice President, Hedging & Trading Operations
- Alex Hebner, Hedge Account Manager
- James Cahill, MSF/MSR Account Manager
- Kevin Foley, Director, AI Labs
Production Team
- Executive Producer: Sara Holtz
- Producers: Matt Gilhooly & Alex Kreuter
Commentary included in the podcast shall not be construed as, nor is Optimal Blue providing, any legal, trading, hedging, or financial advice.
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Optimal Blue, Optimal Insights, artificial intelligence, AI Labs, AI in mortgage lending, mortgage technology, mortgage innovation, enterprise AI, responsible AI, lending technology, mortgage lender, mortgage banking, capital markets, mortgage rates, inflation, Federal Reserve, mortgage market, secondary marketing, hedge management, MSR, mortgage servicing rights, PPE engine, fintech, digital transformation, market update, productivity, automation, lender efficiency, housing finance
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Welcome to Optimal Insights. I'm your host,
Speaker:Jim Glennon, Senior Vice President of Hedging and Trading Operations
Speaker:at Optimal Blue. Our clients and industry partners have long relied
Speaker:on Optimal Blue for trusted insights and commentary.
Speaker:And these podcasts are an evolution of our commitment to keeping
Speaker:the industry informed. Let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker:Okay, welcome everybody to Optimal Insights.
Speaker:Thanks again for being here this week.
Speaker:We are nearing October. Be in October later this week.
Speaker:~ ~ scary to think about that,
Speaker:but a lot of things to talk about from last week,
Speaker:this coming week, and just everything in between.
Speaker:We've seen a lot of just market activity that directly affects rates,
Speaker:a lot of reasons for that. We'll get into all that here in a moment.
Speaker:As always, we are here making sure you know what to watch out for,
Speaker:whether you're an originator, a capital markets person,
Speaker:or just someone interested in the mortgage industry,
Speaker:and some great market commentary.
Speaker:So in a minute here, we'll kick it off with a market update.
Speaker:And then I had the pleasure of interviewing Kevin Foley,
Speaker:who you all know from the podcast.
Speaker:He has recently taken on a new role at Optimal Blue.
Speaker:He is the director of AI Labs at Optimal Blue.
Speaker:So that's a pretty cool name.
Speaker:pretty cool title, pretty cool role within Optimal Blue.
Speaker:We were ~ ~ taken to calling him the AI czar,
Speaker:if you will. If I was to describe it very briefly,
Speaker:that's what I would call it, the czar of AI within Optimal Blue.
Speaker:So looking forward to talking with Kevin here in a minute.
Speaker:Before we get to the market update,
Speaker:just I'm sure y'all are aware,
Speaker:but rates are higher than they've been in a very long time.
Speaker:Years at this point, the OBMMI,
Speaker:30-year conventional, is kind of
Speaker:Meandering around seven and a quarter.
Speaker:So solid three quarters higher than it was just a few short weeks ago.
Speaker:~ the 10-year hovering around five and a quarter.
Speaker:We hit five and a quarter this morning,
Speaker:which breaks some recent records as well.
Speaker:So let's get into that, gentlemen.
Speaker:Welcome, Alex, James. Thank you for being here.
Speaker:As always, where to begin?
Speaker:I mean, we've we've had this run up basically in the month of September,
Speaker:is where we've seen most of this.
Speaker:This rate activity, nothing terribly new,
Speaker:right? It still feels like a just a gradual reckoning of
Speaker:all these different forces that are pushing upward on rates and allowing almost
Speaker:no justification to reduce rates.
Speaker:We did have the Fed decision less than two weeks ago that that pushed short-term
Speaker:rates up a quarter, but that had been priced in.
Speaker:That was understood. That was expected.
Speaker:a little bit of
Speaker:Fed
Speaker:speak recently that's I guess maybe a little bit more hawkish.
Speaker:So for the Feds part, they're trying to do what they can to end
Speaker:the discussion about inflation.
Speaker:So totally understand that. But it feels like that's a saga that we
Speaker:may actually see an end to at some point in 2027.
Speaker:Let's talk about some of the other things that are that are pushing rates right now.
Speaker:So what did we get? Let's maybe just talk data first.
Speaker:What did we get last week
Speaker:just in general, but what affected what may have had an effect on rates
Speaker:or may have an effect on rates going forward.
Speaker:Yeah. It was a relatively quiet week last week,
Speaker:as is the third month of each third
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:week of each month is generally speaking.
Speaker:~ we got the unemployment numbers on Wednesday,
Speaker:not just initial claims week over week,
Speaker:nothing to write home about, floating just under two hundred thousand,
Speaker:which is where we would expect that number to be at.
Speaker:And then we had a slew of Fed speakers.
Speaker:There, I think there were five throughout the week who were all ~ as their votes
Speaker:two weeks ago indicated, ~ they're quite hawkish right now.
Speaker:They're they're as you said, Jim,
Speaker:they're gonna squash this inflation once and for all,
Speaker:and then they will look to their other priorities.
Speaker:the the employment picture really gives them no excuse not to
Speaker:be looking at inflation. The
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:last non-farm number at the beginning of last month looked great,
Speaker:surprise to the upside, 160,000 new jobs.
Speaker:And it was ~ strongly in favor of of some sectors of the economy that
Speaker:we were not used to seeing them in,
Speaker:especially hospitality that showed that,
Speaker:~ ~ discretionary spending on,
Speaker:~ ~ hospitality going on vacation,
Speaker:that seems to be, ~ ~ doing okay.
Speaker:So much so that, ~ ~ businesses are hiring for that sector.
Speaker:so really really there's there's no excuse
Speaker:not to be looking at the inflation picture.
Speaker:and that and that is what last week and I think the week even before that
Speaker:was really establishing that ~
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:we're gonna be aggressive with getting rid of this inflation and we
Speaker:can think about the other priorities down the line,
Speaker:but not right now.
Speaker:Yeah, it's still this I I do appreciate the unified front.
Speaker:I I think there was some damage done at the end of the Powell administration where
Speaker:you had different members of the Fed coming out and st
Speaker:and having differing different opinions in the media.
Speaker:And I think that caused some a little bit of distrust,
Speaker:a little bit of uneasiness, probably led to some volatility.
Speaker:So even though we're seeing high rates right now as a result of some of this.
Speaker:discussion in the media from the Fed,
Speaker:they're all ~ ~ speaking the from the same book,
Speaker:right? Which again I appreciate because then hopefully we get to
Speaker:a point where inflation looks good.
Speaker:And if all then of the members come out in the media and say that,
Speaker:they say inflation looks well.
Speaker:We we think we've we have it generally under control.
Speaker:I think the market will react well to that versus a few members coming
Speaker:out and saying inflation looks great,
Speaker:other ones saying no, we need to be more hawkish.
Speaker:I
Speaker:just feel like this unified front is gonna pay dividends at some point,
Speaker:but we're just gonna have to take the pain here for a little while
Speaker:as the Fed basically has giving no indication of of any sort of rate cut.
Speaker:In fact, they've all said it's reasonable to expect more cuts,
Speaker:possibly multiple this year, and which would lead me to believe at least
Speaker:one ~ sorry, hike this year.
Speaker:Absolutely. ~ I think one of the narratives that you can kind of spin
Speaker:for the pain that we've been feeling these last two weeks is we're building
Speaker:in more rate hikes. You know, the the market's pricing
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:those ahead of time. we're now expecting another 50 basis points in hikes before
Speaker:the end of the year. ~ and then potentially another 50 basis points inside
Speaker:the first half of twenty twenty seven.
Speaker:So, you know, that's that that's an aggressive path that the market
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:is currently pricing. but I don't think it's the unrealistic path either.
Speaker:Right, so full point
Speaker:And
Speaker:of hikes.
Speaker:Jim, to your like the fact that they were all aligned,
Speaker:right? Warsh
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:has said, you know, he doesn't really want it to be
Speaker:coming out and saying exactly what the Fed's gonna do.
Speaker:He doesn't want to have to make these long statements,
Speaker:everything very clear. He wants the market to try and float on its own
Speaker:and make its own decisions. So that led to a lot of discomfort.
Speaker:People didn't really know which way things were gonna go.
Speaker:You can look at the CME and see there was a lot of variation.
Speaker:But after coming out last week and all of them voted in the same direction,
Speaker:it really snaps much closer to,
Speaker:okay, they are actually all in alignment on this,
Speaker:even if they're not coming out and saying it,
Speaker:this is the idea, this is the path.
Speaker:It makes it easier for the market to project what
Speaker:we are ~ assuming will happen.
Speaker:Right. I think we could the Fed continues to shoot down any hope that anyone
Speaker:may have still had that the Fed was somehow owned by the White House administration.
Speaker:There was obviously some hope there,
Speaker:whether it's hope or suspicion early on that the Fed has certainly I would
Speaker:say in a way regained their independence in the eyes of of the world,
Speaker:hopefully. ~ but at the same time,
Speaker:again, that that leads to higher rates and we're we're seeing
Speaker:Not new records, but records we haven't seen in a long time.
Speaker:So five and a quarter on the 10 year mortgage rates not nearing records mostly
Speaker:because of the spread, right? It has been encouraging to see that spread between
Speaker:treasuries and mortgages continue to hang in there and stay low.
Speaker:So we're still right around 200 basis points,
Speaker:which is great. There's a lot of market reasons for that.
Speaker:There's a lot of supply demand.
Speaker:influence on that. ~ unfortunately,
Speaker:it probably also means that the thought
Speaker:Of the investor is that rates are going to stay higher for longer.
Speaker:Therefore, I'm willing to invest in mortgages at a fairly low yield relative
Speaker:to treasuries because I don't think refinance opportunities are coming anytime soon.
Speaker:Anyway, that's the story, even if it's not the best outcome.
Speaker:What what should we be thinking about this week?
Speaker:We have we're into the fourth week of the month now.
Speaker:As you said, third week tends to be slow,
Speaker:although we did get some decent pressers.
Speaker:But
Speaker:this week we actually have some economic data coming out.
Speaker:The big one, right? On Friday,
Speaker:we have the non farm payrolls and we have PCE this week.
Speaker:What are what are expectations for both of both of those?
Speaker:What should we be kind of monitoring?
Speaker:Next
Speaker:Expectations
Speaker:aren't for anything out of the blue,
Speaker:so to speak. The PC one, I think,
Speaker:has the potential to upset the most.
Speaker:It's expected like 3.6, I believe,
Speaker:for ~ the all-in number, 3-2 for the the core number.
Speaker:but what I want to keep in mind with a lot of folks is that we saw
Speaker:a resurgence in energy prices throughout the monitoring period for this PCE release.
Speaker:So I think that if anything, there's the chance for this to surprise the upside.
Speaker:And I think with
Speaker:how currently on edge the market is right now,
Speaker:I think that that could really quickly lead to another leg higher on
Speaker:on the rates front.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:~ we are expecting ~ a not as strong of a jobs number this time around,
Speaker:somewhere in a neighborhood of 80,000 versus last month's 160,
Speaker:but 80K would still be a a decent clip.
Speaker:And again, if we can continue to see the the labor force participation rate.
Speaker:~ remain strong and we could may maybe even see additional job gains
Speaker:in some of those sectors we're not used to seeing them in.
Speaker:I think that would the market would write that off pretty easily as you know,
Speaker:we're all good on the the labor front for the time being.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Let's continue
Speaker:to focus on on inflation.
Speaker:I'd second your comment on the energy and PCE,
Speaker:right? It's coming out saying that we're gonna be at about 3.2% core.
Speaker:That's where we've been sitting the last ~ four,
Speaker:maybe five of these. So maybe without core,
Speaker:so including energy prices, it's creeping up a little bit.
Speaker:But we've gone up about 50 cents on oil and gas prices at the pump.
Speaker:in the last month. So this is going to bleed through.
Speaker:I think a lot of what you might be seeing in the market over the past
Speaker:few days is people trying to bake in the fact that this might be
Speaker:a bad inflation print. And if it is a bad inflation print,
Speaker:then we are more likely to see the rate hikes coming.
Speaker:So I'd say my estimation would be people are trying to bake that in ahead of time,
Speaker:which actually then it leaves open if we have a slightly better jobs report
Speaker:on Friday, the market could cool off.
Speaker:We could actually see a little bit of a rally back.
Speaker:So something I'd be watching out for.
Speaker:Interesting. So yeah, ~ ~ we're we continue to see the effects
Speaker:of this ongoing war. As you said,
Speaker:that a pretty big hike up in in fuel costs again after repeated ~
Speaker:~ seesaw of we're making a deal,
Speaker:we're not making a deal, we're gonna continue bombing.
Speaker:The election is coming up, that's gonna change things too,
Speaker:just leading to more volatility.
Speaker:The ~ ~ just a reminder to everybody the the rate hike
Speaker:a
Speaker:week and a half ago should have no effect on this number.
Speaker:There's it there's a much longer runway after a rate hike to to experience
Speaker:any sort of effect from moving rates.
Speaker:So it does feel like a surprise of the upside is possible.
Speaker:And that's it. Yeah, if it's already built in,
Speaker:I guess that's somewhat good news,
Speaker:especially if we get through this week with ~ ~ at expectation numbers
Speaker:for jobs and for inflation, we could maybe see a little bit of an maybe a f
Speaker:at le a flat line next
Speaker:this week and next week would be just fine compared to what we've seen over
Speaker:the past few weeks.
Speaker:We c anything else we should talk about regarding the war?
Speaker:It it's such a back and forth,
Speaker:such a groundhog day situation that I f sometimes I forget to talk about
Speaker:it on this podcast that it's still
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:going on.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:~ ~ been on ice when you think about,
Speaker:~ ~ the US Iran direct clashes.
Speaker:It it really w we were under the memorandum of understanding for a good two,
Speaker:three months. ~ and even though that expired,
Speaker:there hasn't been reduced strikes from the US side or the Iranian side
Speaker:for that matter. but both sides right now seem to be gearing up for something.
Speaker:You see it in the news. ~
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:you know, Trump has said, you know,
Speaker:we will resume strikes after the election.
Speaker:I personally think that's a weird line in the
Speaker:sand a draw of of when you're going to be doing that.
Speaker:But ~ ~ maybe it's some art of war and it's gonna be before the election.
Speaker:We're gonna catch them off guard.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:but ~ it it seems to be com both sides seem to be gearing up.
Speaker:The Iranians are saying, you we will remain defiant in the face of of
Speaker:you know any aggression. So ~ it does feel like there will be renewed conflict
Speaker:in throughout the fall, which is unfortunate for everyone involved.
Speaker:~
Speaker:as well as ourselves here just looking at ~ the rates picture.
Speaker:I I might actually take an a opposite stance to on that,
Speaker:Alex. Like I I heard at the UN the Iranian president said,
Speaker:Yeah, we're we're not backing down no matter what.
Speaker:But over the course of this weekend,
Speaker:~ Iran did say that they would like to return to the memorandum
Speaker:of understanding from this past June,
Speaker:July, and the Trump administration did shoot it down.
Speaker:I've been, you know.
Speaker:Over the past year we've heard a lot that Iran wants a deal.
Speaker:They really want to get out of this.
Speaker:any day now it's gonna it's gonna go away.
Speaker:But this is the first time in the news I I've seen the news reporting that Iran
Speaker:has suggested some type of stop.
Speaker:Right. That to
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:me means that they very much do.
Speaker:They're very much willing to publicly say that they do in a way that
Speaker:the United States media could get a hold of and say this.
Speaker:and if they want a stop, that does indicate that there's a lot of pressure.
Speaker:pressure
Speaker:on that government. I've heard one of the main things they want is they want
Speaker:the blockade to be relieved, which I would want that too if it was causing
Speaker:me a lot of pressure. So I actually think the administration,
Speaker:the American administration might have some leverage here.
Speaker:We might actually be starting to see some movement,
Speaker:but we are nine months into it.
Speaker:So maybe I'm maybe I'm overreading it,
Speaker:but I I thought seeing that news come out said there might be some cracks starting
Speaker:to show.
Speaker:Here's hoping we're just carrying a big stick,
Speaker:as Teddy Roosevelt
Speaker:~
Speaker:was apt to say. ~ but yeah, ~ ~ at some point both sides think that they have
Speaker:the upper hand here, right? ~ one on the energy side,
Speaker:one on the sanctions and you know,
Speaker:kind of strangling an economy side.
Speaker:So someone will have to come to the table eventually and and hopefully that is soon.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's it is interesting to what you said there,
Speaker:James, that the media is is reporting presumably directly from hearing from
Speaker:the Iranian side versus normally when you hear that the Iranians are looking
Speaker:for a deal, it's President Trump who's tweeted that,
Speaker:right? So yeah, you are getting maybe more of a real realistic view
Speaker:of what's actually happening. And that if they're looking for
Speaker:a quicker resolution than the arbitrary line in the sand,
Speaker:which is the election, that pours cold water on a previous.
Speaker:assertion that nothing was going to happen until the election because
Speaker:the thought there was that the Iranians are hoping to use that that honestly that
Speaker:American politicians will use this war to hang over the head
Speaker:of the Republican Party, right?
Speaker:So that the Iranians if the Iranians can hang in there until after the election,
Speaker:~ there's a better chance of of this being resolved.
Speaker:But until the election, they'd want the war to at least on paper continue
Speaker:so that it looks bad.
Speaker:For the Republicans, right? But I feel like we're getting so close
Speaker:to the election that I don't know,
Speaker:it it at this point it's almost arbitrary when this war ends.
Speaker:So diesel prices, you said you mentioned that,
Speaker:~ ~ gas prices ~ ~ hanging in their mid to low forehandle across the nation,
Speaker:obviously higher in places like California.
Speaker:But diesel is 50% higher than that,
Speaker:roughly, at least by my estimation,
Speaker:of driving by gas stations lately.
Speaker:So there's been some talk from the administration about potentially
Speaker:banning temporarily, hopefully,
Speaker:diesel exports out of the US.
Speaker:What what is the story there? That that would seem like given
Speaker:how important diesel is to industry in general,
Speaker:whether it's heavy equipment or ~ trucking.
Speaker:And in Europe, I think, right,
Speaker:we were talking earlier about in Europe,
Speaker:a lot of the automobiles, just personal vehicles run on diesel.
Speaker:What's what's the the latest on the possible diesel export moratorium?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so the administration is looking to do some sort of ninety day
Speaker:ban on diesel exports. ~ reason behind this,
Speaker:right? Diesel is what we put into our heavy machinery.
Speaker:It's what you would put into an eighteen wheeler.
Speaker:anything that you wanna drag
Speaker:goods across the country. Jet fuel,
Speaker:anything going into a large shipping vehicle are already so expensive.
Speaker:Makes sense to try and transport more things by land,
Speaker:but if everything's running on diesel,
Speaker:that is far, far more expensive.
Speaker:trying to get that in ~ under control,
Speaker:keep it low in the United States would help the cost of goods,
Speaker:so it would bleed through inflation.
Speaker:It would be, it would definitely help nationally.
Speaker:It's a tough item though because many of our allies use diesel far more than
Speaker:the United States does. We use it in our large machinery and eighteen wheelers
Speaker:for transportation, but legislation in Europe during the twentieth century
Speaker:or twenty-first century led to
Speaker:Diesel emits lower greenhouse gases than just straight
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:oil. You can set up a car to emit less.
Speaker:So they passed legislation to make sure that more and more of their cars were using
Speaker:diesel. So more and more of the infrastructure over in the Middle East
Speaker:and by extension Russia at the time were set up to produce diesel.
Speaker:Now with the war in Ukraine, Europe does not import diesel or oil from Russia.
Speaker:So that makes things harder for them.
Speaker:With the war in Iran, they can ~ import
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Import
Speaker:far less, which makes things far more difficult for them.
Speaker:they're running something about 40% of their cars use diesel,
Speaker:which is much, much greater than the percentage of the United States.
Speaker:So it would push gas prices far higher in Europe,
Speaker:which would bleed through to inflation in Europe,
Speaker:which can cause problems.
Speaker:Internally, as ~ foreign goods become more expensive.
Speaker:~ ~ if we're able to replace them easily,
Speaker:that's fine. But if the foreign goods become more expensive and we have
Speaker:to be buying them from them, then it will bleed back to us.
Speaker:So there has been a number of ~ CEOs,
Speaker:business leads that have come out and said that they don't necessarily think that
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:this is a good idea, despite the you know,
Speaker:surface advantage that it would have.
Speaker:Right. It does feel like something that is the the thought of a ban or even
Speaker:a actual ban is something that would potentially benefit us domestically,
Speaker:but certainly has far reaching ramifications,
Speaker:which is why even American business leaders are coming out and saying it's
Speaker:not a good idea. I think the Europeans ~ ~ th their fuel is already
Speaker:in the double digits per gallon,
Speaker:right? So now that this would potentially cause a crippling effect if we were to
Speaker:Basically cut them off from any diesel that they can get even ~ ~ easily.
Speaker:Yeah. ~
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:over the course of the last, you know,
Speaker:four years since the invasion of Ukraine began,
Speaker:to Europe has become far more reliant on US energy imports.
Speaker:So ~ this would be kind of the last leg they're standing on when it comes
Speaker:to their energy policy. ~ because as James
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:was saying, it historically has come from Russia and the Middle East
Speaker:and both of those ~ avenues are currently closed because of the conflicts that
Speaker:are going on. So looks good for,
Speaker:you know, US energy exporters.
Speaker:but if that were to be instituted by the administration,
Speaker:it would put Europe in a real bind.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Only other one I'd throw on with this is ~
Speaker:We've talked previously in ~ ~ Indiana has some of the lowest gas prices
Speaker:in the United States, and we went back on why that might be happening,
Speaker:and it's because they had suspended their gas tax,
Speaker:right? And so that helps keep it lower.
Speaker:I will say in the state of Maryland,
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I've
Speaker:now started to see commercials running for you know,
Speaker:the November elections, we're gonna put it on the ballot to suspend the
Speaker:gas tax for now. And I would say,
Speaker:~ I'd suggest that other states you might start seeing that,
Speaker:hearing that on the radio, you know,
Speaker:proposition two fifty one or whatever they're gonna have in
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:order to try.
Speaker:to spend the gas tax for a while.
Speaker:But that does mean, ~ ~ if you're not paying the gas tax,
Speaker:your state is absorbing less tax and they have less money to put to use ~ elsewhere.
Speaker:So knock on.
Speaker:Right. Definitely creates a shortfall and for what advantage or what benefit
Speaker:gas taxes are not. I mean, they're big in some states like California,
Speaker:but I know in Colorado it's it is pennies on the dollar,
Speaker:like a few pennies per dollar.
Speaker:So we're w we would it would be a minimal effect.
Speaker:But as you said, like when you start looking at the number of gallons that
Speaker:get pumped, you you're likely seeing many hundreds of millions of dollars
Speaker:in lost tax revenue over that period of time that that needs that's
Speaker:should be going to funding roads and every all ~ ~ everything else.
Speaker:And if they don't have that tax revenue,
Speaker:they're gonna make it up by issuing state debt.
Speaker:If there's more debt out there,
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:interest rates, push.
Speaker:~
Speaker:Very interesting. Yes, this that could affect rates as well.
Speaker:And certainly the money has to come from somewhere,
Speaker:right? And even if you're issue debt for it,
Speaker:the taxpayers are gonna have to repay that.
Speaker:Those same taxpayers are the ones that are getting the cheap gas for
Speaker:~ however long these moratoriums on taxes last.
Speaker:There's no free lunch, I suppose.
Speaker:Nice full circle.
Speaker:Nice full circle, James.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker:Nicely done.
Speaker:All right, gentlemen, anything else?
Speaker:think that just about wraps us up.
Speaker:All right. Thank you so much. Lots going on.
Speaker:Watch out for PCE and the non farm report later this week.
Speaker:Stay safe out there. Thanks everybody.
Speaker:One quick note before we get back to the conversation.
Speaker:If you enjoy the kinds of discussions we have on the Optimal Insights podcast,
Speaker:you'll find even more of them at the Optimal Blue Summit 2027.
Speaker:What I love about the summit, it's not just the presentations,
Speaker:it's the opportunity to connect directly with lenders,
Speaker:capital markets leaders, product experts,
Speaker:economists, and peers who are all working through many of the same challenges
Speaker:and opportunities that face our industry.
Speaker:The conversations that happen between sessions or at dinner or at happy hours
Speaker:are just as valuable.
Speaker:I think, as the ones that happen on stage.
Speaker:If you will be joining us in Scottsdale this February for the conference,
Speaker:my teammates and I are very much looking forward to seeing you.
Speaker:If you're not sure yet, ~ learn more and register at summit.optimalblue dot com.
Speaker:I believe early bird pricing is available through october thirty first.
Speaker:welcome back to the podcast, Kevin Foley.
Speaker:Good to see you again.
Speaker:Glad to be here.
Speaker:so we are introducing Kevin this time around.
Speaker:If you haven't seen it already on LinkedIn or or anywhere else,
Speaker:Kevin Foley is now the Optimal Blue director of AI Labs.
Speaker:So we're gonna talk about what that means today,
Speaker:because I'm still kind of learning what that is.
Speaker:~ while Optimal Blue has been,
Speaker:you know, heavily involved in developing AI across all of our products.
Speaker:this is a new role with an Optimal Blue,
Speaker:a new role for Kevin and a new
Speaker:area of the business that's really designed around focusing and
Speaker:c coordinating all the different units of optimal blue around
Speaker:our existing AI initiatives and new ones and the vision of all that,
Speaker:tying it all together. But I'll let I'll let Kevin ~ ~ explain to us more what this
Speaker:is. But also more broadly just talk about AI in general and and what
Speaker:our industry and other industries are experiencing right now and ~ ~ where
Speaker:we are in the ~ ~ the evolution of people using AI for actual practical uses rather
Speaker:than
Speaker:what we've talked about on this pod continuously,
Speaker:which is in the past it's been more ~ ~ theoretical or what could AI be used for?
Speaker:Should AI be used for everything,
Speaker:right? Which we'll debate a little bit here in a second too.
Speaker:But let's just start, Kevin, like what what is AI Labs and what is your what
Speaker:is just your role in in ~ ~ building that out and being the ~ ~ running that that
Speaker:new organization within Optimal Blue?
Speaker:Yeah, well, ~ super excited about it.
Speaker:~ first of all, and you know it's AI has been ~ passion of mine for
Speaker:a while and ~ definitely have have been geeking out on new
Speaker:AI capabilities and trying things out myself,
Speaker:experimenting really since Chat GPT ~ first launched about four years ago.
Speaker:But the AI labs
Speaker:Division of Optimal Blue is a brand new division within the organization.
Speaker:And the goal is to accelerate our AI investment and double down
Speaker:on the success that we've had with a lot of our AI capabilities that we've brought
Speaker:to market already and are being used by hundreds of lenders across the country,
Speaker:things like originator assistant,
Speaker:which allows loan officers to double check to see if there might
Speaker:be small changes in.
Speaker:A loan scenario that can get borrower better terms.
Speaker:~ things like Ask Obi, where you can use natural language to query anything about
Speaker:your ~ PPE data and your hedge data as well.
Speaker:~ our hedge assistants, which help manage a variety of very cumbersome tasks that
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:we've now
Speaker:been able to liberate our users from,
Speaker:from trying to dig into why their position or their
Speaker:Profitability has changed day over day with market changes.
Speaker:also our trade assistant, which ~ can help users as they're determining what
Speaker:~ what trades to make. And even in our configuration site,
Speaker:we now have our rules assistant,
Speaker:which can again use natural language to help construct rules within the PPE.
Speaker:So all very exciting capabilities.
Speaker:These are these are all groundbreaking capabilities for our industry.
Speaker:But what we realized.
Speaker:given how we've rolled out these capabilities over the last couple of years
Speaker:and how successful so many of them have been,
Speaker:that we really needed to double down on this and centralize the strategy around what
Speaker:we're doing. And that's why we created the AI Labs division.
Speaker:And so I'm very excited to be leading this organization and help building it out.
Speaker:It's gonna be a cross-functional ~ organization across
Speaker:products, dev, really every department of the company that it's gonna help
Speaker:us both internally as well as externally help our customers.
Speaker:So really excited about it.
Speaker:Yeah, man, I love the concept.
Speaker:And I think, ~ ~ maybe this is advice or maybe it's already known to other,
Speaker:~ ~ companies that build AI. But I was talking with some folks on
Speaker:our desk and actually with Cynthia yesterday who manages our operations team.
Speaker:And there's this like you have in my mind anyway,
Speaker:you have your product team and your development team who are tasked with building
Speaker:out a lot of these features and the and the you know,
Speaker:especially when you get to the to the developers,
Speaker:they don't have
Speaker:The business domain knowledge that the people talking to the customers
Speaker:do and actually pushing the buttons and working through ~ actual problems with with
Speaker:clients, right? So having that better connection,
Speaker:it feels like, or having ~ a core like a ~ ~ quarterback section
Speaker:of the business that's driving that vision,
Speaker:but also bringing together so you ~ ~ have the business side educating
Speaker:the people building the product and building the AI,
Speaker:but also so that they understand the business use case for it,
Speaker:but also the
Speaker:There also needs to be some knowledge on the business side of what the
Speaker:AI is capable of, the best ways to solve problems.
Speaker:So you kind of have your devs and your product folks educating the folks that face
Speaker:the clients as well. And it I I feel like that's created a more fluid
Speaker:and more efficient ~ construct to build out some of these these AI tools.
Speaker:And adding a central hub within the whole organization feels like it would just make
Speaker:that make that better, would it not,
Speaker:or make it even more efficient?
Speaker:Yeah, that I think that's pretty spot on.
Speaker:you know, when it comes to AI,
Speaker:there you have to marry the know,
Speaker:technological expertise with the business expertise to really achieve meaningful
Speaker:outcomes. So you need to have that whole field of vision to be able
Speaker:to solve problems. And so that's why,
Speaker:you know, especially with the AI labs,
Speaker:it's not just about
Speaker:what one department does or what one team does.
Speaker:It's about being able to have the line of sight throughout the
Speaker:the the whole ecosystem, whether it's you know building new software capabilities
Speaker:or building new external capabilities or building capabilities internally here
Speaker:to help us run more efficiently.
Speaker:It's important to have all of that in your field of view.
Speaker:And so that's part of why, you know,
Speaker:we needed to create this centralized location for a lot of that work to happen.
Speaker:Right. Great. ~ ~ you know, I do want to get to a bit more macro AI here in a sec,
Speaker:but just to kind of cap off what you're doing,
Speaker:like what can folks expect from OB from Optimal Blue going forward in terms of AI?
Speaker:Yeah. So I I ~ ~ I think ~ like I mentioned,
Speaker:we want to double down on the success that we've had with AI already
Speaker:and being a leader in AI within the mortgage industry and marrying that that
Speaker:technology expertise and that that domain,
Speaker:or you know, our industry expertise that we've built over over decades.
Speaker:And I think it's important that we also wanna make sure that everybody knows that
Speaker:we are developing AI ~ responsibly.
Speaker:We are not ~ building experimentations and ~ tr you know trying them
Speaker:out and seeing seeing how they work.
Speaker:That's not the approach that we're taking.
Speaker:So we're building real solutions to solve specific problems that
Speaker:are governed, that are you know high value,
Speaker:high ROI for lenders. And ~ ultimately that are capabilities that you can trust,
Speaker:and you can you can trust.
Speaker:that your organizations can roll those out and realize the benefits of
Speaker:of AI to solve specific problems.
Speaker:And, you know, I I I listed a a laundry list at the beginning of some
Speaker:of the things we've already rolled out.
Speaker:And just just think about the opportunity for lenders to be,
Speaker:you know, liberated from a lot of these mundane repetitive tasks or things that
Speaker:we do on a daily basis that might be cumbersome,
Speaker:but that are important to ~ to the work that
Speaker:lenders are doing running a business and originating loans,
Speaker:you know, though there are there's a lot there that is an opportunity for
Speaker:AI to help streamline and increase productivity of you know of lenders.
Speaker:So ~ lots of lots of things that we're looking at and ~ prioritizing over here
Speaker:how we're how we're gonna tackle that
Speaker:I I think the the big takeaway though is really the AI labs for lenders just means
Speaker:faster innovation delivered, but also a level of discipline that is important
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:for anybody who's wanting to make sure that they are responsibly adopting
Speaker:new technology. So that's what we're focused on here,
Speaker:and that's what customers should know.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:great. That's great. Well, let's ~ let's go a little bit macro.
Speaker:You've been to ~ ~ you've been representing us at conferences.
Speaker:AI is often the topic. I think you also you're just out there kind
Speaker:of reading and learning about this kind of thing as it as it develops.
Speaker:What are some of the interesting things you're seeing developing just
Speaker:in the world of AI right now that that that that people would should know about just
Speaker:because it's it it it moves so fast.
Speaker:I have I have I have it on my phone,
Speaker:I know that. I use Copilot, I use
Speaker:The tools in our own system, but what what else are you seeing out there
Speaker:is just the interesting developments in the macro world of AI.
Speaker:yeah, ~ ~ honestly, it changes so frequently,
Speaker:but this is an area where I like I said,
Speaker:I I enjoy geeking out. And ~ so I'm I'm
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:always trying to read what what people are publishing in this area
Speaker:or what what's what's being rolled out.
Speaker:A few things that come to mind.
Speaker:I think in the last few months,
Speaker:Microsoft Copilot has gotten a lot smarter.
Speaker:~ copilot
Speaker:It has.
Speaker:used to be the you know, that AI capability in the room that you know everyone
Speaker:was sort of poking fun at and
Speaker:that ~ ~ out of the box Microsoft capability,
Speaker:I think, has gotten a lot more powerful,
Speaker:which is ~ which is great. I think there's there's a lot there's
Speaker:a lot that's happening around agentic coding and frameworks around agentic coding.
Speaker:that's making it easier and easier for enterprises to to adopt
Speaker:and take our developers ~ away from having to manually write all of
Speaker:the code to where a lot of that is assisted now.
Speaker:that's another big trend over the last few months.
Speaker:there was a slew of model releases over the summer,
Speaker:both from OpenAI as well as ~ Anthropic.
Speaker:We just had Opus 5.5 drop in the last week,
Speaker:which is a more powerful model at a cheaper cost as well.
Speaker:When you're thinking about paying for consumption,
Speaker:which if you're working in enterprise,
Speaker:that's something you need to be thinking about.
Speaker:and even ~ the some of the model updates from OpenAI also you you have
Speaker:GPT six that is in some cases as powerful or more powerful than
Speaker:you know the previous 5.6 and also cheaper ~ with with a slew of cheaper options.
Speaker:So lots of it's it's I was using one set of models predominantly ~ earlier
Speaker:in the summer. Now ~ it's completely different.
Speaker:seeing a lot of cost savings as well.
Speaker:So
Speaker:those are those are just some of the things.
Speaker:Also, there there is one interesting thing I'll point out for listeners,
Speaker:which is there was a model, a new model called JEV,
Speaker:which was dropped
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:in the last couple of weeks. And it's something it's different than a
Speaker:~ a generative AI type of large language model that we're used to.
Speaker:And it's you can think of it as more of a
Speaker:A tool with advanced reasoning,
Speaker:but you have to ask it multiple choice questions,
Speaker:which is kind of it's it's this kind of abstract concept,
Speaker:but
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it's insanely fast and cheap to use.
Speaker:And so there's all sorts of these applications and people already building things
Speaker:and showcasing them online how you can use this as part of your workflows,
Speaker:where even if you're trying to figure out which model do I use
Speaker:for a particular task.
Speaker:Or the slew of ~ ~ questions that you ask models,
Speaker:which might be yes or no questions,
Speaker:multiple choice, or which one of these is this most like,
Speaker:also multiple choice. A lot of that capability now,
Speaker:you know, there's a potential for that to be not free,
Speaker:but nearly free. And so you know,
Speaker:thinking about where capabilities like that fit into
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:a larger workflow, definitely something that I'm gonna be ~ keeping a close
Speaker:eye on over the next couple of months.
Speaker:Yeah, that's a weird one. I you told me about that one the other day
Speaker:and I still haven't wrapped my brain around the use cases for that,
Speaker:but I also haven't done the research.
Speaker:So I I think after this podcast I probably need to.
Speaker:Well, so so one example is
Speaker:~ I'll I'll give you ~ a very a a very vivid example,
Speaker:right? Which is ~ somebody built,
Speaker:so you know how ~ you know every web page has like an FAQ section,
Speaker:you know, about about the company or about the product,
Speaker:you know, things
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:like that. So ~ somebody built an interactive unlimited FAQ,
Speaker:basically. Because if you're asking a question,
Speaker:you're usually you asking something like,
Speaker:can this product do this?
Speaker:Which is a yes or no question.
Speaker:Can this product
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:do this? And so you see there's a video online of someone who's,
Speaker:you know, ~ can just interact and keep asking questions and it keeps building this
Speaker:dynamic FAQ right on someone's website.
Speaker:And again, you know, nearly free,
Speaker:nearly free to do. So it's, you know,
Speaker:th things like that. I thought were pretty cool.
Speaker:And I think there's gonna be a lot of applications for in the future.
Speaker:Right. So the ~ ~ the major upsides then are just as you said,
Speaker:it's cheaper and it's faster. In in
Speaker:Yes. Yeah.
Speaker:an age where even though you mentioned some of the models you're using
Speaker:at home are getting somewhat cheaper,
Speaker:I think the thought is that right now a lot of these models are lost leaders
Speaker:and the tokens are going to become more expensive over time 'cause it's sort
Speaker:of unsustainable the amount of energy that's being paid for by these
Speaker:AI providers and used by either the
Speaker:the lay person like myself or especially by the experts like our devs
Speaker:and our our product teams, we're probably probably getting a deal right now.
Speaker:Yeah. And I that's ~ ~ it's an interesting question.
Speaker:It's and it's probably true, but it's so hard to know for sure because everything
Speaker:is, ~ ~ such a black box. ~ ~ to what extent are you
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:getting, ~ ~ a discount versus to what extent may may there have been real,
Speaker:~ performance breakthroughs
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:that are are driving some of these things or efficiency gains.
Speaker:You know, it's possible that some of the more complex routing that you have when
Speaker:a model is released ends up being
Speaker:~ ~ made more efficient in a subsequent release,
Speaker:you know, things like that. But you know,
Speaker:certainly I think a a takeaway for me related to that part of
Speaker:the conversation is you don't want to tie your fates necessarily to one model or
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:one provider because things change so frequently.
Speaker:So if you have embedded tools that allow you to,
Speaker:you know, plug and play more easily,
Speaker:that will allow you to be more dynamic when the landscape changes.
Speaker:Right. It's not a linear race,
Speaker:right? And I I've heard anecdotally,
Speaker:and also you read that certain models are better at certain things.
Speaker:They're all moving forward, but some are moving forward in different areas,
Speaker:whether it's problem solving, pr creating presentations,
Speaker:working out engineering problems.
Speaker:There's there's some are just working it's like a s it's a w wild spectrum.
Speaker:And to your point, that the efficiency piece has gotta be huge.
Speaker:~ ~ you think back to we all had a computer,
Speaker:~ ~ sometime in the nineties, if well,
Speaker:if you're as old as I am.
Speaker:And that thing was horribly big and slow and stupid.
Speaker:And now obviously we have
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:w we each have a computer in our pocket that that dwarfs that by a million miles,
Speaker:right? So th these models are gonna do the same thing.
Speaker:Yep, yep, for sure.
Speaker:All right. So ~ ~ you get on LinkedIn or anywhere out there and you
Speaker:you you hear about the positives,
Speaker:the things that are being invented,
Speaker:the the medical breakthroughs that are coming.
Speaker:What are some of the challenges though?
Speaker:You know, besides things like cost and making the models more efficient,
Speaker:deciding which one to use? Are there I mean,
Speaker:I'm sure there's other challenges out there with especially with implementing
Speaker:AI and working through AI problems within an organization?
Speaker:Like what are you seeing out there as you talk to people?
Speaker:Yeah. So I I think ~ ~ there's two sides of this.
Speaker:There's if you're building capabilities or you're adopting capabilities.
Speaker:I think there's challenges on both sides.
Speaker:And you know, one thing just to pick up where you left off talking about using
Speaker:computers in the nineties, I mean,
Speaker:that was kind of a a learning curve,
Speaker:right? To to figure out how to use it and ~
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:go through DOS and ~ you know,
Speaker:Yeah, prompts and
Speaker:set up yeah, yeah, all that
Speaker:all that stuff.
Speaker:And and I I I think that's an interesting analogy because I feel like that's
Speaker:~ ~ where we are now with AI, where there is there is a
Speaker:a significant learning curve, I think,
Speaker:and really understanding the technology,
Speaker:the applications. And I've always been a fan of the idea of getting your reps in.
Speaker:You know, if you're trying to
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:~ increase what you can lift, you gotta get your reps in.
Speaker:If you're trying to run a marathon,
Speaker:you gotta get your reps in and
Speaker:Same thing is true with AI as well,
Speaker:especially because the landscape is changing so quickly.
Speaker:But there are, in my opinion, exponential benefits to getting your reps in,
Speaker:meaning just using the technology,
Speaker:understanding what's working, what's not working,
Speaker:because a lot of I think what we take for granted now about using computers,
Speaker:it's so easy. It's so, you know,
Speaker:you don't even need to think to to
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:to do it.
Speaker:That's been, ~ ~ decades of engineers going in and trying to fix all these
Speaker:~ ~ rough edges that all exist in the in the AI space today that haven't really been
Speaker:solved for yet. ~ so I think the the there's,
Speaker:you know, natural learning curve,
Speaker:that's that's one challenge. ~
Speaker:Also, I would mention security.
Speaker:~ security is always
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:top of mind. And ~ because the landscape is so dynamic,
Speaker:I think security is of utmost importance.
Speaker:I mean, that's really the the number one,
Speaker:I think, consideration that we have when we're thinking about AI capabilities
Speaker:is the security of it, both for us and and for our our our customers.
Speaker:~ because ~ you know if you are
Speaker:not if you're if you're not prioritizing or you're not thinking about security
Speaker:as a first principle, it's easy to get led astray there.
Speaker:and then ~ cost optimization, I think is probably the the other challenge
Speaker:is how do you figure out what models you should be using for what tasks?
Speaker:When does it make sense to go bigger on more comprehensive reasoning
Speaker:for additional costs versus you know pull back and and use something cheaper.
Speaker:So that's more on the building side on the on the implementation side.
Speaker:I I think there's still a huge problem of trying to separate smoke
Speaker:and mirrors from real capabilities.
Speaker:Mm-hmm. ~ boy. Yeah.
Speaker:Like that's just
Speaker:it's it it's so easy to and and I've I I I've seen it,
Speaker:you know, myself too, where you know,
Speaker:you have AI kind of builds build you a little dashboard for something,
Speaker:~ and you think you know it's
Speaker:You see some some people think,
Speaker:whoa, this is this changes everything.
Speaker:And it's really once you, once you start to build on that from there
Speaker:or try to tackle more complicated code bases,
Speaker:~ ~ real enterprise problems, ~ it requires a whole different strategy.
Speaker:So know, the it's it's r can be really tough to separate out what is
Speaker:can be really trusted AI capabilities versus
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:what's just part of the hype cycle.
Speaker:and then also knowing the the right solutions to the right use cases.
Speaker:You know, I've mentioned before AI hasn't changed how we problem solve.
Speaker:you know, when ~ think about how do we solve problems with AI,
Speaker:I think there's a temptation sometimes to just say,
Speaker:~ if we can just get some AI in here that's gonna turn everything right around
Speaker:Yep. Every problem. Yeah,
Speaker:and yep, we're gonna we got it.
Speaker:We we gotta cover it in
Speaker:I want
Speaker:I I'm guilty of that. I want AI in my toothbrush,
Speaker:man. ~ everything should have AI,
Speaker:~ yeah, all right.
Speaker:right? But it's it's
Speaker:but to your point, you have to start with the problem.
Speaker:Like, all right, it's it's it's it's still a problem.
Speaker:You got you gotta start with the problem and it
Speaker:What is what how should we tackle it?
Speaker:Is AI even the right tool to use?
Speaker:Exactly. And you know, and it might be in in a lot of cases,
Speaker:but it it might not be, or it might be only part of the solution.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:but also I think that learning curve is still there as well.
Speaker:If you're on the implementation side,
Speaker:you know, it it's there is a a level of expertise I think that every organization
Speaker:needs around AI. And it takes it takes effort to get there.
Speaker:You gotta get your reps in.
Speaker:Right. Okay. I mean, back to to optimal blue.
Speaker:We have our summit coming up in February where we will have seven hundred plus
Speaker:people converging upon Scottsdale,
Speaker:Arizona to talk about everything,
Speaker:right? Around the industry, capital markets,
Speaker:kind of end to end automation,
Speaker:but also AI. Right. I assume there will be some announcements there around Optimal
Speaker:Blue.
Speaker:AI innovation, but also ~ what what are some other things ~ or what
Speaker:are some things you're not to let the cat out of the bag,
Speaker:right? We'll keep this very general,
Speaker:but what what are you looking forward to here in two thousand twenty seven for LB?
Speaker:Yeah, so ~ I I cannot I cannot reveal too much,
Speaker:but I think everybody should know that there are ~ there's there should
Speaker:be some exciting things ~ discussed and and rolled out as part of
Speaker:our Optimal Blue Summit in early February next year.
Speaker:So if you ~ you haven't already got your tickets,
Speaker:~ highly recommend that. So you'll be in the room and be the first to know.
Speaker:we're gonna be talking about a lot of things,
Speaker:including ~ just thought leadership,
Speaker:I think which is
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:is very important because
Speaker:There is a component, ~ ~ we think of ourselves at OB here as you know,
Speaker:technological ambassadors to the industry.
Speaker:We understand a lot of these highly technical concepts.
Speaker:We can be trusted partners for our customers related to those topics within their
Speaker:business. And so we want to help ~ lenders also understand ~ the lay
Speaker:of the land when it comes to AI.
Speaker:what we see working, what we don't see working,
Speaker:what you can learn from us beyond all of those exciting things that we'll
Speaker:be we'll be rolling out as part of the summit.
Speaker:So a lot
Speaker:Wonderful.
Speaker:to
Speaker:lot to look forward to there.
Speaker:Yeah, man. No, that's great. I think that's a great a great note to end on too.
Speaker:And and you know, I know you're you're very busy with all this this stuff
Speaker:and with your family and everything.
Speaker:So I really appreciate you taking some time to talk with us today.
Speaker:It really means a lot and and yeah,
Speaker:just an exciting topic. So we should we should have you back on again here.
Speaker:in the in the coming weeks, not months.
Speaker:So thanks again, man.
Speaker:Yeah, happy to be here. And ~ nice shirt by the way.
Speaker:Yeah, thank you. What do you got on there?
Speaker:~
Speaker:Ha ha.
Speaker:all right. We're just a couple of ~ walking advertisements today.
Speaker:There there we go, there we go.
Speaker:Thanks for doing that. We did it.
Speaker:We didn't plan this in case anyone's wondering,
Speaker:We definitely
Speaker:so
Speaker:didn't. That was kind of funny.
Speaker:Right on. All right. Thanks again,
Speaker:Kevin. Take care, man.
Speaker:All right. Great. Great to talk to
Speaker:you. Yep.
Speaker:And that's it for today. Join us next week for another episode of Optimal Insights,
Speaker:where we'll continue to provide you with the latest market analysis
Speaker:and insights to help you stay ahead.
Speaker:Check out our full videos on YouTube.
Speaker:You can also find each episode on all major podcast platforms.
Speaker:Thanks again for tuning into Optimal Insights.
