Lower Rates Ahead? Breaking Down the Economic Signals | Optimal Insights | Sept. 8, 2025

Jim (: 01:36

Welcome to Optimal Insights. I'm your host, Jim Glenn, and Vice President of Hedging and Trading Client Services at Optimal Blue. Our clients and industry partners have long relied on Optimal Blue for trusted insights and commentary, and these podcasts are an evolution of our commitment to keeping the industry informed. Let's dive into today's episode. Welcome everybody. Thank you for being here on this Monday. It is September 8th. A lot going on. We're going to dedicate today's episode to just a big old market update.

What happened in the jobs report last week? What's on the docket this week for things like inflation and consumer sentiment? And we'll lay out some scenarios for you and maybe little bit of our you our own take on where we're going to go from here for the rest of the year. So, so stay tuned for that. We'll talk with Alex, Jeff and James. we get into that, just in the way of stats, OBMMI shrinking about 6.3 and we're getting a little bit of a rally today. So we may see that touchdown at six and a quarter.

here pretty quickly. The 10-year treasury is at 4.05. So well down from some highs that we've seen even in the past few months. Again, we're looking to get to where we were last fall where we had a little bit of a refi boom. need to touch 6%, which we're on our way. It feels like some of the economic data that's not been great in conjunction with, it looks like the willingness of the Fed to focus a little bit more on unemployment rather than inflation, which is still a little bit hot.

rate cuts almost certainly coming in this last quarter of the year. mean, all of that is translated to good things for the mortgage industry. As we've said, it can be awkward that we kind of root for lousy economic conditions to get rates lower, but it seems to be the situation that we're in right now. We are seeing volume spike. So new rate locks coming in quite a bit, 20, 30, 40 % above what we've been seeing on average over the past few months. So seeing a little bit of a fall rally here in volume.

So let's go discuss some of the reasons why with the team.

Jim (: 03:33

Okay. As usual, we just kind of started getting into the conversation off camera here and then we made the decision to just start rolling a lot going on and we're to talk about all of it today. So where to even start? I think the unemployment report, we got to cover that, right? That was Friday's labor report. Once again, very poor, I would say, especially relative to the last five plus years. If you take out obviously the first few weeks of COVID.

I mean, essentially all the numbers triangulate to like zero jobs added to the economy in the last several months. that sound about right, Alex, James?

Alex Hebner (: 04:09

Yeah, the jobs number came in for August well below expectations came in at 22,000 new jobs. Expectations were somewhere in the range of 75,000. then the revision for June, out to an additional loss of 21,000. So add all the numbers up and you're left with about thousand new jobs, which is an extremely weak report.

The financial markets definitely didn't like the look of it, but it definitely locked in, I would say, the chances of a rate Besant making the rounds on Beat the Press and other outlets over the weekend was that this was really a confirmation that the Fed was late to the party in regards to rate cuts, that they should have begun cutting back in June.

Jim (: 04:56

Yeah. So basically the net is 1000 jobs added for an economy of well over a hundred million workers. So that is a little bit scary. But it's weird. I feel like it used to be that the equity markets would sell off in a situation like that, but it feels like everything's been priced in already. market rallied a little bit because rate cuts are coming, right? Because they feel like the Fed's going to steepen the curve a little bit here over the next.

a few meetings.

Alex Hebner (: 05:25

Exactly, exactly. going to, they're more so looking at that rate cut. And I think this report was more so, it didn't come out of left field. It was a confirmation of what, you know, what we already see in the headlines, weak hiring numbers, weak new grad employment numbers. So it was just a confirmation of what they already knew. And again, equity markets are forward looking and they're looking forward to some cheaper credit coming here in the next few quarters.

Jim (: 05:33

Mm-hmm.

Right. And then we saw the unemployment report tick up a tenth of a point to 4.3. We were talking again off camera a few minutes Jeff McCarty reminded us that those two numbers, the non-farm number and the unemployment number come from two different surveys.

Jeff (: 06:04

Yeah.

It's kind of interesting. I'm not sure if I have a full handle on it, we'll look into this more as we go. They call it the Establishment Survey the Household Survey. So the Establishment Survey kind of comes more from businesses and government agencies reporting. So that's the then the Household Survey comes from, well, households. there. I saw a good analogy that Establishment Survey is like county chairs and offices.

So

how many jobs businesses have on their books? then the household survey where we get the unemployment rate is asking people if they're sitting in the chairs. that's kind of an interesting way to think about it. And the household survey does a better job. Alex was mentioning of capturing things like the gig economy things like that. Do people have multiple jobs? Those types of things. So the household surveys.

ey, right? So, know, that net: 1000

cutting rates or even, we're gonna see two or three through the end of the year, we're gonna see one or two cuts the end of the year, watching those two numbers in tandem, right? So it's just not one employment number that we're watching. It's multiple employment numbers within there.

Jim (: 07:41

Yeah, it's the whole picture. And James posted another article just before we started recording too, where there's this sentiment out there, right? The sentiment on what it's like to try to get a job right now is hitting record lows. But to your point, we're still at 4.3, which is essentially almost full employment, right? We start getting up over four and a half. That's when people really start worrying, but maybe we're in a different economy and maybe we are behind on the data with all the other things going on. And it does feel like

I think I looked on Friday, the CME was showing, it was 95 plus chances of a rate cut and then the unemployment report came out and then it actually went down for a quarter point cut because the half point cut is on the table now. So if you look at the CME Fed watch, you'll see that some people think there could be a half point cut coming up here in September because the report was that bad and the Fed may decide that.

they need to play catch up.

Alex Hebner (: 08:39

I mean if you look at the longer term trend of just prime age employment those you know between the ages of 25 54 floating around highs for the century. You know it's better than it was in early 2000s and lead up to the 2008 financial crisis and it's it's it's much the 2010s as well. So again, Employment doesn't look too bad yet from a longer run perspective. But again, there's red flags being being flown for sure

Jim (: 09:03

Mm-hmm.

Jeff (: 09:04

One thing to keep an eye on with the employment rate is how it affects obviously our industry in particular. You know, we talk a lot about kind of the broader economic picture, but thinking about housing prices, of course, you know, usually when we see, you know, worse than employment situation, we're going to see softening housing prices along with that as well. then on the flip side, we've got,

we're going to see a decrease in supply due to some of the other going on in the economy, right? Whether a decrease in the workforce, increase in tariffs, know, building more costly. just watching between those two things will be interesting going forward.

Jim (: 09:43

Yeah. I like we've talked about before, there's only a few levers that can change affordability, right? Either wages have to go up, which the unemployment picture is not pointing to that. Rates have to go down, which is starting to happen. We're starting to get some pretty good rally off of these bad economic numbers or the prices on housing need to go down. And it feels like maybe rates and a bit of a correction in housing prices could be in the cards with what's going on right now, as you pointed out, Jeff. mean, was already getting, affordability was already kind of putting a cap on.

It felt like putting a cap on home prices, but now every time we've had a recession in the past even a slowdown or a stagnant economy, you're going to get housing prices going lower. But then there's the supply, like you talked about, you know, there's some signals there with like residential construction jobs have trailed off a little bit or decreasing things like lumber prices are down. So there's less demand there from the home builders potentially.

Anyway, just a lot of signals, but most of them are pointing hopefully towards lower rates here in the medium term.

that covers the unemployment report. Fed meeting is on the 17th. In the interim, have inflation, right? Coming up this week. PPI, CPI.

Alex Hebner (: 10:55

Yeah, that

feels like the last hurdle, I would say, to rate cuts here in September and into the rest of the year. We've seen a slight the PPI last time around. It came in actually pretty hot at then CPI, that's kind of seems to be the one that everyone is going to be, it is the more watched of the But CPI this time around is looking at how much pressure the consumer is under and...

Any signs that again that the tariff costs might potentially be getting pushed out to the consumer may have another rebalancing there with tariffs in headlines right now in the courts and then the district courts saying that the the tariffs are actually legal and that there might be refunds coming for the tariffs that have already been collected which we can get into in a But again, just just back to what is happening this week. We'll be seeing PPI on Wednesday and CPI on

Thursday with CPI being the one the markets are watching with a little bit more of a microscope on.

James Cahill (: 11:52

this point, do you think there's any number that could come out that would back off the Fed's chances of cutting rates in the future? This 25 basis points is coming 10 days out. There's really no stopping that now. But if inflation came out and it was higher than expected and it's like, why would it be a surprise? But why would the jobs report have been a surprise twice in a there was a high number, do you think that would convince like, hey, we might have to slow down in the future or are we kind of

Right, we might be stepping on this path, lowering rates, trying to help the jobs out and trying to just get the economy looking a little bit better before we try and step on rates again or inflation.

Jim (: 12:32

Yeah, that's a provocative question. Yeah, how much weight is the Fed putting on unemployment versus inflation? mean, if you see a four or a five handle on the CPI number, you know?

James Cahill (: 12:35

Mm.

Jeff (: 12:47

Yeah.

Alex Hebner (: 12:48

I was gonna say there is a number, but is it a realistic number?

Jim (: 12:50

Yeah. All right.

James Cahill (: 12:50

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff (: 12:54

I was reading a couple of from some prominent economists you should be looking at really the long-term of inflation trends. And because we've had such high inflation, we should overshoot our inflation target and bring it back down to well below 2%. So that as you're looking over a multi-year average, we're still at that

Jim (: 13:11

Mm-hmm.

Jeff (: 13:15

I don't see that practically happening in any way, just given political environment and otherwise, but it is an interesting argument that we're at two and a half percent now, we gotta get it well below two percent, down to one percent for a while, so that if you look over the past five years, we're hitting that two percent number. Which would be wild to think about if we actually high enough to actually accomplish that.

Jim (: 13:37

raising rates.

Yeah, you can't claim victory yet is what they're saying, right? On average, we're probably still four or five, six percent over the last half decade.

Jeff (: 13:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Hebner (: 13:50

To answer your question, think any realistic number where the CPI could fall could be spun in a way that would still allow for a rate cut in September, but would open the conversation to a pause beyond that for the rest of the year.

Just my two cents.

Jim (: 14:04

Yeah, I mean, it's still kind of miraculous

that we're not seeing more inflation from some of the tariff numbers. Like we're seeing the margin get absorbed at the producer level from what, I mean, most of what you read, if you believe the headline numbers were kind of wild that we're still 3 % or less. But yeah, I don't see in this, in any environment where the Fed allows unemployment to start climbing up towards 5 % without making cuts or at least holding.

James Cahill (: 14:08

you

I think I would agree with all that take, right? It's just, you've got to make a pick on which of these two you want to fight. And at this time, the economy seems like the better one, the employment seems like the better one to try and go for. just is kind of an interesting thought of, well, if you saw something bad, what would November look like? What would December look like?

Jim (: 14:55

All right. So why don't we, another thing we were talking about earlier is just kind of laying out what the different scenarios could be for the rest of this year, we're kind of, feel like we're kind of at an inflection point right now and we're, using words like stagflation. up against the last couple of meetings of the year for the FOMC. let me, what are the, there's like four scenarios that could play out here over the next few months, right? Base case being.

Sort of status quo, we get a little bit of a Fed rate cut September. The inflation numbers this week generally fall in line with expectations, call it two and a half to 3%. Jobs numbers of stay stagnant to flat to zero. So that's scenario one. What happens in that scenario, who knows, you'd probably get a couple of cuts before the end of the year. You get more articles about how the job market's kind of terrible

Consumer sentiment continues to suffer. Another scenario would be, as we're alluding to earlier, the inflation skyrockets, right? We finally get some of these numbers from the tariffs coming in and you do get four or 5 % inflation making people pretty nervous, I would that case, maybe the job numbers are okay. Maybe you know, CPI, PPI, through expectations, you know, what does that do?

for the Fed, what kind of situation is the Fed in? If that happens, then you've got, so that's scenario two, right? Scenario three would be inflation stays low, but there's still growth concerns, right? Unemployment continues to climb. Not a terrible scenario to be in. We should probably get more rate cuts from the Fed. Then worst case scenario, probably is stagflation, right? That's sort of, I think just a four letter word.

in the finance industry and it's not something anybody wants to see and it's something typically, historically for countries like Japan and even the US back in the 80s, it takes a long time to dig out of a stagflationary situation. There's really no upside, right? Whereas in certain kinds of economies, like even our economy over the past five years, had inflation, we had really hot job market, had really hot equity markets and generally dynamic economy.

But what happens if we get stagflation, which to remind everybody is no economic growth, essentially, rough job numbers, but also inflation. So you're not getting the payoff of either of those sides of the ledger.

Jeff (: 17:22

Yeah, there's a lot in there. Just looking at what the market is expecting, the market is expecting, if we're looking at the CME rate then the 68 % chance of essentially one cut every meeting, so three cuts through the end of the There's a non-trivial chance of four cuts.

Jim (: 17:24

I mean...

Jeff (: 17:45

I think those people would be looking at a pretty rough employment situation, 8.7 % right now, which is low, but still not insignificant. People think at a in rates by the end of the year, that seems like a lot to me. And then a 22 % chance of only two cuts throughout the end of the year. So that's kind of what the market pricing in and seeing right

Jim (: 17:59

Mm-hmm.

Jeff (: 18:10

I'm probably, oh jeez, I don't know.

Jim (: 18:14

Yeah,

let's go around the room here. What's your call, Jeffrey? So, three-quarter point before the end of the year is the consensus in the market, but very good chances of higher than that or lower than that. And then what does that mean the economy is doing around Christmas time? Like, what do you think?

Jeff (: 18:30

Right, I I see probably two cuts through the end of the year. the status quo probably hangs on to enough control of the Fed through the end of the year to be a little bit more conservative in the cuts. I don't think we're gonna see dramatic numbers either way that push us to move in one direction or another too quickly, right? We're still seeing, as you said,

tariffs still have not like fully played out or we haven't seen the full effects of those. The unemployment situation is still too murky. Still too many unknowns that aren't going to get cleared up in just a couple of months here.

Jim (: 19:05

Good call. Good call. Alex, what do you think? What's your, your case. ⁓

Alex Hebner (: 19:11

Yeah, I'm very much so on the same page as Jeff. think makes a good point, just the politics of the board more conservative, hawkish outlook would probably, this would probably be their last hurrah, but through the end of the year, they'll be able to retain control of policy. I'd just kind of like to say that, you laid out four cases there. I think the first three all, to varying degrees,

fall into the soft landing bucket, is, you know, it's what we've been talking about for three, four years now of getting the inflation under control just returning the economy to a status quo. we talk so much about employment right now, but we're coming off of an extremely hot jobs market. the things people were during the COVID era of, know, holding down multiple jobs because they could work from home.

tech companies were extremely over saturated with employees may or may not have always been part of the main product offerings that these companies have. And we've seen them pivot really quickly, not just from an era of cheap credit where they could afford employees that maybe didn't have the largest productivity gains. These are the same companies now that are seeing the most

explosive growth from their AI initiatives. So I think that those two in conjunction with each other a large chunk of this, the employment woes that we're seeing throughout the economy. The numbers back that up with, we only see job growth in healthcare and it's been really weak in the white collar tech sectors. So I'm with Jeff, think barring... ⁓

like an extremely low inflationary number, would open the door to that three or four cuts. I'm in the boat of two cuts for the rest of year.

Jim (: 21:00

Good case, good case, pretty conservative, you two. I like it. Just kind of middle of the road and you know, yeah, let's go Cahill.

Jeff (: 21:05

What, James? Push us.

James Cahill (: 21:07

Yeah, I'll go a little further out. I think it's three cuts. My argument would be not that you're to see anything shocking, not that there's going to be an even worse jobs report to come that would really freak everyone out. at the pace we're going, we're almost assured two cuts, we're going to be moving here, the Fed is going in the direction. There will continue to be pressure from the administration. And as the term of the current Fed governor has come to an end,

we kind of get clarity on who's coming next and what they are thinking. That opinion will influence the market. That opinion will influence what the current governors are thinking. So, you know, why would you pay if January there's going to be a rate cut because the new fed governors are definitely going to do it. You're sitting there in December. That can definitely play into your opinion. Why would you try and hold it down and stop it? I know it's like three and a quarter, three and a half is a

out in December is a pretty low percentage. It's definitely the bet currently is at three and a half to three and three quarters, but I would go lower. I think that they'll cut it.

Jim (: 22:10

All right. Yeah, I'm going to balance things out. I'm with James. I'm thinking three quarters. I'm thinking the Fed gets more aggressive. I think the market gets worse at a faster pace than even people are thinking right now in terms of the job market. I think that kind of helps keep inflation low. I would add to that, I see corrections coming in asset markets as well. I think there's a good possibility there. think right now,

retail spending is still up. lot of the actual measurements are up and earnings are up for a lot of big corporations, but I see the top 1%, the richest people starting to feel the burn in the second half of the year. And that's really when you can spook equity markets. You can see real estate start to fumble a little bit. So anyway, I see a correction coming in certain, probably a lot of asset classes. It feels like we're long overdue for that somehow.

Anyway, this is not financial advice, but.

Jeff (: 23:07

Yeah, I think we're still just.

Yeah, no, I think we're just still so short-sighted. I don't know if those discussions or those dynamics are going to come up yet this year, but certainly looking into early next year, something to keep a close eye Alex hit on the dynamics of AI. How much does AI actually affect productivity growth? Do we see those, well, we may see the losses in employment. Do we see those gains in overall productivity growth? Do we see that play out into next year? And then something that's come in France over the past,

⁓ a week or so recently, when does the austerity conversation come back into play? When does the debt conversation come back into play in the US? We barely talk about that right now. We've talked about this on this podcast, but just kind of like week to week, we don't really talk about it. So those dynamics, I don't see coming into play yet. We've got too many other things to focus on right now between tariffs and some other things.

Jim (: 24:03

Yeah, that's a good point too. Alex was pointing out last week too that, know, equities, certain types of assets can be good to participate in when you're worried about inflation. You know, if we see these inflation numbers go down, that could have kind of a weird effect on the stock market. And not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but you look at, like you mentioned AI, you look at Nvidia and Palantir and some of these others that are, you know, they're

price to earnings ratios are preposterous, really. mean, as if they're going to grow a thousand percent over the next to three years and they can't all do that, right? They're not all going to be at the top of the heap in terms of who's providing AI. There will be some losers in that battle. when a lot of these companies make up a huge percentage of the S &P, which is a huge broad index, right? Like, what does that mean for the larger economy for people's 401Ks for just generally the

never ending bull market that we've seen in mostly American stocks over the last decade. I don't know, we could spend a whole podcast probably talking about the dynamics of PE ratios versus home prices versus all the other asset classes that are out there that you're reading more articles that have bubble in the subject line. Who do you believe right now?

Alex Hebner (: 25:24

agree. Prevosterous evaluations. just the percentage of what the Mag-7 is responsible for all of the growth in the S &P 500. Everything else has not performed as well or at all. all things to keep in mind. And I'm with you. see the word up more and more.

James Cahill (: 25:28

had it.

Jim (: 25:36

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hebner (: 25:49

No pun intended.

James Cahill (: 25:49

I

Jim (: 25:49

so to speak.

Yep.

James Cahill (: 25:52

saw it pointed out this weekend that BYD, like Chinese electric car company, Their revenue is pretty comparable to Tesla's. It's actually, higher. So they're doing a better job of earning, but Tesla's stock price is more than triple. So, you know, when you break it down to fundamentals, that doesn't make sense. You know, there's speculation and there is a wow factor to their CEO over there, which is likely a ⁓ part of that.

price tag, but if you just look at that, that does paint kind of a shocking picture.

Jim (: 26:26

It does. think I read Tesla's market cap is well above all the other car companies in the world put together. I want to say it would include GM, Ford, BMW. okay. Yeah, it's like, these earnings improvements and revenue increases for AI continue on forever in a straight line? Some of the stock prices would suggest that, but there is a limit to what people need. it's almost like we've forgotten.

Alex Hebner (: 26:34

Correct.

James Cahill (: 26:39

You

Jim (: 26:55

a of years ago when that, was the name of the company in China that was worth like $7 million and they came up with an AI algorithm that was faster than the Deepsea, that's what it was. We freaked out for like a day on that and then we all patted ourselves on the head and decided everything was cool. So we'll see.

Alex Hebner (: 27:05

Deep seq. Yes.

James Cahill (: 27:06

See you.

Jeff (: 27:06

Do you

see a

there's a large American exceptionalism conversation in here we could get into as well. reading this weekend, ⁓ companies fleeing the London Stock Exchange to get listed in America. So anyways, lot of dynamics there as well.

Jim (: 27:31

Yes, it kind of always has been. All right. Speaking of which, some of that revolves around sentiment. That's the other big number coming out this week that seems to be getting more press is what consumer sentiment comes out Friday, right?

Alex Hebner (: 27:45

correct yes.

Jim (: 27:46

again, sort of an intangible number, right? But it is based on a survey and I don't know, what should we be looking out for there?

Alex Hebner (: 27:53

I mean, just just looking at it from ⁓ a decade long perspective, it's as I noted earlier, it's consumer sentiments extremely weak right now. It's near the lows of the financial crisis and the lows of COVID when everyone was, know, the first two months of COVID when everyone was freaking out about the virus. To me, that doesn't really track quite with reality. think, you know, I could be showing my cards here and, you know, I know I'm fortunate individual, but

you know, the economy has performed fairly well by all other metrics. Um, you know, all the data shows that the economy has been performing very well, whether it's in jobs, whether it's in equities, whether it's in, you know, home price appreciation. Um, but this consumer sentiment index consistently shows that the least of those that they are interviewing that they do not have a fond outlook on, their economic prospects. just, it's just always an interesting one just to kind of try and gauge where the economy is at.

And again, it doesn't line up with like consumer spending, which, you know, if you were dour about your economic prospects, you theoretically wouldn't be ⁓ out spending money in the economy, you know, maybe, maybe starting up a rainy day fund instead. But it's just an interesting one to keep our eyes on. Again, I think CPI will be the star of the week, but it's another rabbit hole we could go down on. Why are these numbers so dour?

Jim (: 29:12

Yeah, it's all about perspective potentially, right? Is it the news that people are reading? it folks being interviewed that maybe can't afford a home right now? Because affordability is pretty lousy. Is it the sector of folks that aren't able to find jobs? it just sort of the huge change in the political climate that I think just freaks some people out because there's a lot of changes happening all at once and people don't know how to... I mean, not everybody talks about this stuff every day like we do, right? They just see what they...

they read in the headlines or what they see at the supermarket and maybe they were expecting deflation after inflation, they're expecting prices to actually go down, but it's starting to feel like maybe this is just the status quo for a very long time that prices will go up, jobs will be harder to get. And we're just in this sort of correctional phase of our economy.

Alex Hebner (: 29:59

Yeah, it could also point to, know, if you choose to believe that the consumer index, that what people are saying is true, that it points to all the other data is potentially wrong and there's some sort of there with how we're collecting on jobs. As Jeff pointed out earlier, you know, is the gig economy employment, you know, are people making enough money to live fulfilled lives from those jobs? Should those jobs be counted as jobs? And then in addition to that,

Jim (: 30:11

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hebner (: 30:24

you know, are the inflation metrics capturing what we intend to capture with them, which is the true price appreciation of a basket of goods. And is that basket of goods accurate for the 21st century? Because that's something else to keep in mind as well. You know, this basket of goods is slightly aged, depending on who you ask. And again, everyone's basket of goods is different. And I could go down a whole rabbit hole about that, but everything is generalized. But again, it does call into.

things that we should be asking.

Jim (: 30:53

A lot to think about gang. Anything else from the group here that we should be watching over this next week or so?

Alex Hebner (: 31:00

I don't think so. Again, just keep an eye on those inflation metrics and we'll have more to talk about next week.

Jim (: 31:05

All right, good discussion everybody. Thanks for the time today.

Alex Hebner (: 31:09

Thanks guys.

Jeff (: 31:10

Thanks, Jim.

James Cahill (: 31:11

for you.

Jim (: 31:12

Wow, fantastic discussion today. Can't wait to do it again. But let's close this one out. Big thanks to James, Jeff, Alex. Again, really good discussion and a lot of good wisdom there. And we'll see how things play out here in the fourth quarter. Just a reminder of some events coming up. Kevin will be moderating a panel out at the New England MBA later this week. So that's a pretty cool gig for us. And also hope to see many of you in Nashville.

Wednesday and Thursday this week. On Thursday, we have our Optimal Insights Forum. So that is a capital markets forum that we've been putting on for several years. And now we've tied that back to this podcast. So looking forward to seeing a bunch of our customers and our friends and colleagues out there. So hope to see you there. And that's it for today. Join us next week for another episode of Optimal Insights, where we'll continue to provide you with the latest market analysis and insights to help you stay ahead. Check out our full videos on YouTube.

You can also find each episode on all major podcast platforms. Thanks again for tuning into Optimal Insights.